I'm confused on the Evaluations. Lower numbers are better, right?

Oh, okay. I thought so, but I was just checking.

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Originally posted by: The Bartender
"Who is doing the reviews and rankings?
Although I am slightly biased by my place of employment (Buick dealer), trying to look at things objectively, I don't think the Lesabre was given an unbiased evaluation.  There are reasons why the Lesabre is the best selling full size car in the US, and has been for 11 years.
Also, squeezing a Lesabre down under $24K is not the easiest thing, even with rebates.
I can't disagree witht he seat comments, although the bucket seat package makes a big difference, even though it eliminates the center position.  (Which, as noted, isn't really practical, anyway.)"

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It's my website, and I write the reviews and evaluations.

I agree that it wasn't easy getting a LeSabre in the price range, but a Custom with side airbags squeezed in there.

And the reason that the car sells so well is its owner loyalty, largely with the elderly. And it appears to be a good bargain, a roomy, large sedan for under $25,000. But it fell apart under scrutiny.

Also, didn't know you worked at a Buick dealer. Do you drive a Buick?

Also, can you point out specific complaints that you had with the review?

Thanks.

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Originally posted by: Fire It Up
"Ifcar, do you drive the cars? "

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If you have developed a better procedure, I'd like to hear it.

-- Edited by ifcar at 21:07, 2005-01-28

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Originally posted by: thewizard16
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I think the only reasons the LeSabre sells so well is it's market base with older people. It has a fantastically smooth ride, and a decent engine, but the interior is downright dismal, in my opinion. I hate the styling, but I also understand that this vehicle wasn't designed to appeal to me. My great aunt used to have a LeSabre, and she loved it, but I never knew what she saw in it. It's not a terrible car, it's just not a good mainstream car for the average buyer."

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I'll have to disagree about the ride. It's not especially smooth, just extremely soft, and it becomes unsettled easily, filters road imperfections poorly, and is prone to float at highway speeds.

I like the look of the thing myself though, at least outside.

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Originally posted by: ifcar
" If you have developed a better procedure, I'd like to hear it. -- Edited by ifcar at 21:07, 2005-01-28"

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Well, test driving 20 cars for something thats not a profession is very uncommon, so I was just wondering.

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Originally posted by: ifcar
" It's my website, and I write the reviews and evaluations. I agree that it wasn't easy getting a LeSabre in the price range, but a Custom with side airbags squeezed in there. And the reason that the car sells so well is its owner loyalty, largely with the elderly. And it appears to be a good bargain, a roomy, large sedan for under $25,000. But it fell apart under scrutiny. Also, didn't know you worked at a Buick dealer. Do you drive a Buick? Also, can you point out specific complaints that you had with the review? Thanks."

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I'd appreciate your feedback here.

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Originally posted by: The Bartender
"Yes, I work for  Buick dealer in MD, a Buick ONLY dealer.  We're one of the top ranked dealers, currently #1 volume slaes in the state and have been for 6 or 7 years now.  We also have 4 of the 6 GM World Class Technician's in the state.  (This may not mean much to the average person, but the World Class Tech program only has about 300 or so members, out of 60,000+ GM Techs in the US.  We're REAL big on tech training.)
I mention where I work now, because otherwise I could be accused of defending Buicks.  My pesonal car is a 1986 Pontiac Grand Prix 2 door 305cid V8.  My previous car was a 1979 Olds Cutlass Supreme 2 door with a 260cid V8.  I like big, old cars, and by working at a shop, I can easily indulge that desire.

Why would being called a Buick defender be necessarily a bad thing? I've defended a fair number in my time.

As for the review:
First, I've obviously driven a lot of Lesabres, and many other mainstream cars.  (Our body shop repairs cars for Enterprise Rent A Car, so I've spent time in almost every car on your list.)  In the past 19 years (my time at dealerships), I would estimate that I've driven in excess of 3,000 cars, a large chunk of them GM products; I've driven at least one sample of almost every car GM makes, from 1985 to current.
Second, Buick's are NOT cars I personally find all that appealing.  I'm single, with no kids, and 36 years old.  (My parents, that's another story.  They've owned 5 different Buicks in the past 16 years.)  The last Buick that I had any real interest in was the 1996 Roadmaster, especially the wagons.  Before that, it was the Grand Nationals/Regal T-Types.  (Even the Regal GS doesn;t do all that much for me.  Again, the RWD thing comes into play.)  So don't assume that I'm defending the Lesabre or Buicks because I have a personal preference for them.

I'll keep that in mind.

While the Lesabre has soft ride, I find it otherwise comfortable.  The target market seems to, as well.  No matter what people say about Buicks and old people and loyalty, if the car didn't ride comfortable for them, they wouldn't buy them, at least not in the numbers they do.

What the target market thinks is irrelevant, as many of the cars in that group have different target markets, but each car shouldn't be reviewed on a separate scale.
Also, Buick's owner loyalty suggests that cross-shopping isn't especially common. Thus, the LeSabre still rides like the 1990s model did, while other midsize and large sedans have improved, and its buyers aren't entirely aware of that.

Also, the base model does ride different than the various up lines with ride packages, even though the difference is minor. For the purposes of your comparison, I don't think the Lesabre belongs in the group, anyway.  It's aimed a different market than most of the rest of the vehicle son your list, besides normally being bought at a higher price point.


And only the base model fit into this price range. I'm not going to, for example, review the Chrysler 300C instead of the 300 with the 2.7-liter V6 because it's more popular. Nor would I exclude the car because it's normally bought at a higher price point, nor because it is generally bought by different people. Some would consider the Mazda6 to be in a different class than a Camry because it's so much sportier, others would consider a Hyundai Sonata to be in a different class because it's less expensive, etc. Price is a good standard to go by, at least at this price point.

One thing I do dislike is the "owner loyalty" comments that get tossed out.  There is some truth to this, but I still don't think 100,000+ buyers a year would purchase Lesabres over the other cars in the price and size category unless the Lesabre was a pretty good car.

It's the car that its buyers are looking for, but that doesn't make it a good car.

Also, why is owner loyalty almost always meant as a good thing when people discuss Honda or Toyota, and almost always seems to have a negative connotation when people talk about GM or Ford?

It's just an explanation of the car's high sales, not an insult.

For review purposes, I think a reviewer should state basic information about him/her self, as this information can affect the assessment of the vehicle.  A 20 year female college grad is going to have radically different views of a car than a 65 year old retired stock broker.  With the major car mags, we know who the reviewers are, so we can account for their biases.  (i.e., I know Yates is a cranky old man who likes muscle cars, I know Jean Jennings-Lindamood is a well off educated women who likes trucks and peformance vehicles, etc.)

I really don't think that information is anyone else's business. Some people like different things from a car, but I'd say enough information is presented to let people make their own decisions.

"

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Originally posted by: ifcar
"Is getting you to reply here going to be like pulling teeth? "

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I imagine he's pretty busy, between working, and keeping up with C&D garbage.