luxury cars evolving backwards ?

nameta9 · 4 Cylinder

luxury cars evolving backwards ?

ifcar · Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by: nameta9
"
The 70s american luxury car interiors where truly plush (large couches with beautiful clothes; see some brochures on the internet) not like all these gray-black crappy funeral home interiors of BMW, Mercedes etc. One make like imperial or oldsmobile 98 could offer you a larger choice of materials and colors than the entire world car market today can (they all choose gray-black with no pattern, crappy stick shift that kills all the leg room , cramped back seats etc)! So they forgot how to make luxury cars. What I really think is that maybe technically you could still do the above only that many can't even "conceive" of them. We are evolving backwards, the 70s actually was the future."

Interesting post, and welcome to the forums.

I'd say that most of your complaints about the current interiors could be mitigated by the simple choice of the cream-color interior rather than the gray or black (you do have a choice you know). They are much warmer that way.

About seat room: Those behemoth 70s cruisers had not mastered the art of interior packaging that is now present in the cars of today. Thus, the seats are about as roomy (just not as wide) and more comfortable than they were back then.

thewizard16 · V-12

I actually like black interiors a lot, but if you want something warmer and less forboding, I agree, go with cream or beige. I personally like the modern luxury interiors a lot more than older ones though, and I don't see the whole cramped rear seat thing. If you're comparing a 70s full size lux cruiser to a XLE Camry, then maybe, but if you're actually comparing it to modern full size luxury cars, I really don't see that they've gotten cramped.

nameta9 · 4 Cylinder

I told you that people can't even conceive of interiors being different! why can we only choose 2 colors why not 6 or 7 like in the 70s? why only leather and not combinations with cloths and patterns? why not straight elegant dash boards without all the clutter in the middle? Why are the back seats so cramped even in the big Mercedes S ? It is amazing how crappy these cars are! There are thousands of possible cloths and patterns and elegant interiors that could be designed but always only have this one worldwide choice black gray sporty , no patterns crappy bmw mercedes style!

Kevin · GMPenguin

I don't really have any input on this, but welcome.

thewizard16 · V-12

quote:
Originally posted by: nameta9
"I told you that people can't even conceive of interiors being different! why can we only choose 2 colors why not 6 or 7 like in the 70s? why only leather and not combinations with cloths and patterns? why not straight elegant dash boards without all the clutter in the middle? Why are the back seats so cramped even in the big Mercedes S ? It is amazing how crappy these cars are! There are thousands of possible cloths and patterns and elegant interiors that could be designed but always only have this one worldwide choice black gray sporty , no patterns crappy bmw mercedes style!"

I don't like cloth near as well as leather, so I'm perfectly fine with no cloths, but I guess if you're big on personalization, more interior color options would be nice. Patterns I'm not a huge fan of either. And I still don't see where you're getting the cramped back seat from. I didn't think the S was cramped at all.

ifcar · Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by: nameta9
"I told you that people can't even conceive of interiors being different! why can we only choose 2 colors why not 6 or 7 like in the 70s? why only leather and not combinations with cloths and patterns? why not straight elegant dash boards without all the clutter in the middle? Why are the back seats so cramped even in the big Mercedes S ? It is amazing how crappy these cars are! There are thousands of possible cloths and patterns and elegant interiors that could be designed but always only have this one worldwide choice black gray sporty , no patterns crappy bmw mercedes style!"

I don't recall the 1970s luxury cars having patterned cloth seats either. And you can chose many colors on many cars, most have at least three choices. The dashes are arranged the way they are with a center stack to hold the controls for the electronics that are found in all luxury cars (nav system, multi-zone climate control, 6-disc CD). The back seats are not remotely cramped in the back of a Mercedes S unless you are 7 feet tall. And stop insisting that black is the only available interior color option, because it is entirely inaccurate.

nameta9 · 4 Cylinder

Take a look at the car brochures of american luxury cars of the 60s 70s up to about 1988... (www.tocmp.com) They had all kinds of really plush sofas for seats, all choices leather or cloth all colors, it is amazing how we have gone backwards in this field! Now the top notch mercedes S bmw 700 and all the other LOOK ALIKES only offer a crappy black beige leather that is stiff as wood , ugly , no pattern cramped and tight in the back seats , the stick shift area sucks up all the leg room. I can't believe how they are ripping off their customers, but the customers don't know better! But they give you a load of microprocessors so you don't know what program bug will hit you next on the road.

ifcar · Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by: nameta9
"Take a look at the car brochures of american luxury cars of the 60s 70s up to about 1988... (www.tocmp.com) They had all kinds of really plush sofas for seats, all choices leather or cloth all colors, it is amazing how we have gone backwards in this field! Now the top notch mercedes S bmw 700 and all the other LOOK ALIKES only offer a crappy black beige leather that is stiff as wood , ugly , no pattern cramped and tight in the back seats , the stick shift area sucks up all the leg room. I can't believe how they are ripping off their customers, but the customers don't know better! But they give you a load of microprocessors so you don't know what program bug will hit you next on the road."

If you don't start supporting your arguments instead of repeating the same inaccurate statements (IE cramped rear seats), I will ask for and recieve permission to lock this thread.

nameta9 · 4 Cylinder

Granted, there is not much support I can furnace being this an aesthetical choice. I just think that in general we lost quite alot in terms of luxury in the american market in the last 30 years. First you could choose alot of interior options, room was larger especially in the back seats etc.

Now the manufacturers slowly tended towards imitating european and japanese cars which never had any of these luxuries so we ended up loosing it all. The closest thing today is probably the chevy impala ... Then i guess this is probably something only older people would notice being that the younger have never rode in these luxury saloons.

ifcar · Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by: nameta9
"Granted, there is not much support I can furnace being this an aesthetical choice. I just think that in general we lost quite alot in terms of luxury in the american market in the last 30 years. First you could choose alot of interior options, room was larger especially in the back seats etc.
Now the manufacturers slowly tended towards imitating european and japanese cars which never had any of these luxuries so we ended up loosing it all. The closest thing today is probably the chevy impala ... Then i guess this is probably something only older people would notice being that the younger have never rode in these luxury saloons."

Though there may have been more interior room in the 1970s, that certainly doesn't make current vehicles' rear seats cramped. Today's are also better-shaped and more comfortable in my opinion.

I don't really see the Impala as related to the boats of the 70s, it doesn't really have that much rear seat room itself. A better example would be a Town Car or Deville, though they are also no better than cars like the S-Class in that regard.

thewizard16 · V-12

quote:
Originally posted by: ifcar
"

Though there may have been more interior room in the 1970s, that certainly doesn't make current vehicles' rear seats cramped. Today's are also better-shaped and more comfortable in my opinion.

I don't really see the Impala as related to the boats of the 70s, it doesn't really have that much rear seat room itself. A better example would be a Town Car or Deville, though they are also no better than cars like the S-Class in that regard. "

I agree. I for one didn't find the Impala all that roomy, it was decent, but it definitely wasn't a big comfy sofa. There are a lot more roomy cars. The S-Class being one of them.

nameta9 · 4 Cylinder

Well , to be honest, I don't know the S class very well (i don't have that kind of money) but from looking at it from the outside, I have the impression that the back isn't too roomy. Anyways, car companies know that the back seats aren't used much anymore, because in the past people had more children, typical family was more important etc, so they don't pay much attention to the back seat comfort. I know for sure, having been in alot of them and been in europe, in most european cars, even quite high level like Audi 6 and alfa 166 which are considered large there, the back seats are really not comfortable and there is little room. Granted in europe it has always been such, but in the US we imitated them in this and should not have. Yes we did good imitating all the technical - mechanical aspects of foreign cars which were superior, but we should have retained our concept of luxury.

ifcar · Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by: nameta9
"Well , to be honest, I don't know the S class very well (i don't have that kind of money) but from looking at it from the outside, I have the impression that the back isn't too roomy. Anyways, car companies know that the back seats aren't used much anymore, because in the past people had more children, typical family was more important etc, so they don't pay much attention to the back seat comfort. I know for sure, having been in alot of them and been in europe, in most european cars, even quite high level like Audi 6 and alfa 166 which are considered large there, the back seats are really not comfortable and there is little room. Granted in europe it has always been such, but in the US we imitated them in this and should not have. Yes we did good imitating all the technical - mechanical aspects of foreign cars which were superior, but we should have retained our concept of luxury."

All right, before you can continue this conversation, you need first-hand experience in the vehicle. Looking in a window is NOT enough to determine seat comfort or even seat room. I don't have that kind of money either, but it's very easy to go down to a Mercedes dealer, open up the door of an S-Class sitting on the showroom floor, and get into it.

Kevin · GMPenguin

quote:
Originally posted by: nameta9
"Audi 6 and alfa 166 which are considered large there, the back seats are really not comfortable and there is little room. Granted in europe it has always been such, but in the US we imitated them in this and should not have."

You were talking about the S-class, which is German, not American.

thewizard16 · V-12

quote:
Originally posted by: nameta9
"Well , to be honest, I don't know the S class very well (i don't have that kind of money) but from looking at it from the outside, I have the impression that the back isn't too roomy. Anyways, car companies know that the back seats aren't used much anymore, because in the past people had more children, typical family was more important etc, so they don't pay much attention to the back seat comfort. I know for sure, having been in alot of them and been in europe, in most european cars, even quite high level like Audi 6 and alfa 166 which are considered large there, the back seats are really not comfortable and there is little room. Granted in europe it has always been such, but in the US we imitated them in this and should not have. Yes we did good imitating all the technical - mechanical aspects of foreign cars which were superior, but we should have retained our concept of luxury."

You can't make judgements on a car based on what kind of "impression" you get from looking at the car. And I think that it's completely ridiculous to say that back seats aren't used much all the time. People still have kids, even if you only have one you'll be using the back seat a lot of the time, and even those who don't have kids (like myself) are often hauling people around. I have a full backseat rather often.

nameta9 · 4 Cylinder

My observation is mostly on the aesthetical-luxury view. I think the mechanical technical aspects of the modern luxury cars are superior, but it is a fact tht the interiors are all look alikes and generally are bland and suck. Same colors, same designs, no choices of color or cloth etc. If I were bill gates i would buy a few thousand mercedes S and bmw 7 and others and replace the interiors with custom made ones resembling the old american luxury cars, straight line dash, sofas for seats with luxury velour etc. Then you would get the best of both worlds, technical and luxury. How much do any of you guys think a custom interior build would cost per car ? I know top notch sofas come about 5000 dollars, so maybe a complete custom interior coud get up to 40,000 dollars ?

By the way, the microprocessors they introduced to control alot of things in the modern luxury cars IS NOT A GOOD IDEA. Software is still designed like an art, it hasn't acquired all the real engineering precision of mechanics etc. Before putting software in cars, they should design it with top notch precision, and according to a very strict engineering process just like engines are made. This method of designing software must still come of age, therefore they should use a minimum amount of code and wait about 50 years when a real ENGINEERING METHOD of designing software becomes available.

ifcar · Moderator

A sofa would not fit in a car, that's why they aren't used. Current seats have to be designed to be comfortable and leave enough space around them for suitable comfort. And until you sit in the cars you are criticizing, you can't suggest that they don't succeed. Also, even non-enthusiasts could point out the differences of each luxury interior, they're not close to "identical".

thewizard16 · V-12

quote:
Originally posted by: nameta9
"My observation is mostly on the aesthetical-luxury view. I think the mechanical technical aspects of the modern luxury cars are superior, but it is a fact tht the interiors are all look alikes and generally are bland and suck. Same colors, same designs, no choices of color or cloth etc. If I were bill gates i would buy a few thousand mercedes S and bmw 7 and others and replace the interiors with custom made ones resembling the old american luxury cars, straight line dash, sofas for seats with luxury velour etc. Then you would get the best of both worlds, technical and luxury. How much do any of you guys think a custom interior build would cost per car ? I know top notch sofas come about 5000 dollars, so maybe a complete custom interior coud get up to 40,000 dollars ?

By the way, the microprocessors they introduced to control alot of things in the modern luxury cars IS NOT A GOOD IDEA. Software is still designed like an art, it hasn't acquired all the real engineering precision of mechanics etc. Before putting software in cars, they should design it with top notch precision, and according to a very strict engineering process just like engines are made. This method of designing software must still come of age, therefore they should use a minimum amount of code and wait about 50 years when a real ENGINEERING METHOD of designing software becomes available."

Having some experience in the field of computer engineering and software design, and having more experience in electrical engineering, I can't begin to tell you how off you are when it comes to software design. Software design is no better than the engineers that do it, but when it's done right, which really isn't that difficult (although perhaps time consuming) if you test it properly, is nothing like an art, it's very similar to a machine. When you can explain to me how carefully planned algorithims and algebraic equations related to electrical current is art, and isn't precise, continue to talk. There aren't going to be specific universal requirements on software because any luxury car with advanced technology systems are going to have vastly different software programs. You can't put standards on things that 1: aren't physical, and 2: aren't similar.

The Bartender · 4 Cylinder

I don't have hard data, just my observation of vehicles that I have personally seen. My personal database stretches back to about the early '70s. (In other words, I have sat in, driven or worked on many varieties of cars, primarily American, dataing back to the early to mid '70s)

My personal software can be prone to errors, however.

That said, cars in the '60s and '70s did generally have much a much greater range of interior color choices than modern cars. (As mild support, a model kit I have of the '66 Riviera lists over 10 interior colors. The 1999 Riviera had 4, as I recall, blue, gray, taupe and burgundy) However, the manufacturers noted that 3-5 of those colors were purchased 95% of the time, and the other colors, perhaps 3-6 more, only amounted to another 5% of the production. This meant inefficiency, and also excess parts left over for the less selected colors. (Remember, manufacturing was a MUCH less exact process back then, you had to have extras on hand.) The Japanese came along with their first imports that offered few options, and generally they only had 2 or 3 interior colors. This allowed for much greater production effeciency, as fewer colors had to be worried about. In addition, the Japanes ususally had specific interior colors that went with specific exterior colors, and you couldn't "mix and match" much. This produced cost savings, and the American and European companies took note and introduced the idea on many of their cars. For the same reasons, cars normally don't have more than 1 or 2 engine options today, whereas some cars, especially sports/muscle cars, used to have 4-6 engine options. This is also the reason for options packages.

Even trucks have fallen into this category. In 1987, a C10 pickup could have any of the following engines: 4.3 V6, 5.0 V8 (2bbl and 4 bbl), 5.7 V8 (high output and low output), 6.2 Diesel (High output and low output), along with 5 different transmissions, 3 possible 4wd transfer cases and at least 4 different rear end ratios, plus the option of posi-traction. A 2005 C1500 has three engine choices (4.3 V6, 4.8V8, 5.3V8, no diesel, and I don't count the SS) 2 transmisisons, 2 4wd systems and three rear end ratios with posi as an option.

Having sat in a number of those older cars, yes, I do feel the seats were more comfortable to sit in, but not necessarily to drive, especially long distances.