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Kevin


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Tire Pressure Systems Required
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U.S. to Require Car Tire Pressure Systems

WASHINGTON (AP) -- A light on motorists' instrument panels will soon warn them when a tire is underinflated. The safety regulation, issued by the government Thursday, has its roots in the Firestone tire recall of 2000. It requires new passenger cars to have tire pressure monitoring systems in place by the 2008 model year.

Automakers most likely will attach tiny sensors to each wheel that will signal if a tire falls 25 percent below the recommended inflation pressure. If any one of the four tires is underinflated, the sensor sets off a warning light.

Automakers will begin using the technology in September. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration estimates the upgrade will cost manufacturers between $48.44 and $69.89 per vehicle.

The government said underinflated tires affect a vehicle's fuel economy and can increase stopping distances, contribute to the likelihood of tire failure and lead to skidding on wet surfaces. One NHTSA survey found about 30 percent of cars and light trucks have at least one tire underinflated by 8 pounds per square inch or more.

All new four-wheel vehicles weighing 10,000 pounds or less must be equipped with the systems by the 2008 model year, the government said. The regulation affects passenger cars, sport utility vehicles, pickup trucks and minivans.

NHTSA estimates that 120 lives a year will be saved when all new vehicles are equipped with the systems.

The regulation was proposed last September. Tire manufacturers have questioned whether the warning system would signal low pressure early enough. Automakers have raised concerns that motorists may ignore the lights if they appear too frequently.

Donald B. Shea, president and chief executive of the Rubber Manufacturers Association, the trade group that represents tire makers, said, ``Unfortunately, this regulation may give motorists a false sense of security that their tires are properly inflated when they may be significantly underinflated.''

Eron Shosteck, a spokesman for The Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers, which represents nine automakers, said about 18 percent of their vehicles already have the technology. It first appeared in the 1997 Chevrolet Corvette and is currently used in some luxury vehicles.
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MX793


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I heard talk of this some time ago. Personally, I don't like it. Just another part to add to the cost of cars as well as another thing to go wrong and require replacement. Worst of all, IT'S COMPLETELY UNNECESSARY!!!! If people took a little bit of personal responsibility and did a quick walk around of their car to check to see that the tires are not visibly soft (I see a lot of cars running around on very apparently under-inflated tires). Better yet, maybe get a cheap pressure gauge and check their tire pressures once a week. Fact of the matter is, I doubt most people check their tire pressures even once a month, or at all for that matter. I say that if you aren't willing to take responsibility for the condition of your vehicle, then you deserve to crash because your under-inflated tire blows out.

Now, the other side of the argument is that these sensors will warn you if you pick up a nail while driving and your pressure starts dropping in transit. Sure enough, I can see this as legitimate except for the fact that an aware driver should be able to tell he has a tire going down most of the time (unless you're in a vault-like luxury car with practically zero road noise). If you turn the radio down a smidge and pay attention it's not to hard to hear that you've got a tire that's down on pressure. I can remember driving home from school in my 240SX one day and the road noise from the right rear seemed louder than normal. I got home and took a look and sure enough, the right rear tire looked a little softer than the others (but not a lot). Something that could be easily missed on a quick glance. Got my pressure gauge and it read 25 lbs, about 8 less than what I set my tires at. I pulled the wheel and sprayed it with soapy water and found a small nail hole.

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thewizard16


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quote:
Originally posted by: MX793
"I heard talk of this some time ago. Personally, I don't like it. Just another part to add to the cost of cars as well as another thing to go wrong and require replacement. Worst of all, IT'S COMPLETELY UNNECESSARY!!!! If people took a little bit of personal responsibility and did a quick walk around of their car to check to see that the tires are not visibly soft (I see a lot of cars running around on very apparently under-inflated tires). Better yet, maybe get a cheap pressure gauge and check their tire pressures once a week. Fact of the matter is, I doubt most people check their tire pressures even once a month, or at all for that matter. I say that if you aren't willing to take responsibility for the condition of your vehicle, then you deserve to crash because your under-inflated tire blows out.

Now, the other side of the argument is that these sensors will warn you if you pick up a nail while driving and your pressure starts dropping in transit. Sure enough, I can see this as legitimate except for the fact that an aware driver should be able to tell he has a tire going down most of the time (unless you're in a vault-like luxury car with practically zero road noise). If you turn the radio down a smidge and pay attention it's not to hard to hear that you've got a tire that's down on pressure. I can remember driving home from school in my 240SX one day and the road noise from the right rear seemed louder than normal. I got home and took a look and sure enough, the right rear tire looked a little softer than the others (but not a lot). Something that could be easily missed on a quick glance. Got my pressure gauge and it read 25 lbs, about 8 less than what I set my tires at. I pulled the wheel and sprayed it with soapy water and found a small nail hole."

I agree that people should be more responsible, and I also agree that it's rather obvious when a tire is going flat, that said, I still think the pressure monitoring systems are nice. I don't think it should be necessary for it to be a required feature, but seeing as how most Americans, myself included, are lazy, it'll be nice to have.

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Originally posted by: thewizard16
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I agree that people should be more responsible, and I also agree that it's rather obvious when a tire is going flat, that said, I still think the pressure monitoring systems are nice. I don't think it should be necessary for it to be a required feature, but seeing as how most Americans, myself included, are lazy, it'll be nice to have."


Absolutely. And despite all of MX's whinings about the price, I believe the feature is only expected to cost $70 per vehicle.

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thewizard16


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Originally posted by: ifcar
"

Absolutely. And despite all of MX's whinings about the price, I believe the feature is only expected to cost $70 per vehicle. "

That seems reasonable enough. Those type of sensors aren't expensive, the only part that will cost the automakers money is developing their way of displaying the information (and programming to go with it, of course).

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Originally posted by: thewizard16
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That seems reasonable enough. Those type of sensors aren't expensive, the only part that will cost the automakers money is developing their way of displaying the information (and programming to go with it, of course)."


That cost may even be factored into the $70 figure, not sure.

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thewizard16


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Originally posted by: ifcar
"

That cost may even be factored into the $70 figure, not sure. "

Possibly, but I wouldn't count on it. Averaged across an entire model, or if they use the same in each model, and entire line, of vehicles, it wouldn't be too much more though. I'm sure it will vary by manufacturer, though, depending on the complexity of the display system.

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MX793


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quote:
Originally posted by: ifcar
"

Absolutely. And despite all of MX's whinings about the price, I believe the feature is only expected to cost $70 per vehicle. "


Yeah, and I can buy a good tire pressure gauge for less than $20 that I can use on multiple vehicles rather than fork out $70 per vehicle for a tire monitering system. In the grand scheme of things, $70 when compared to the entire price of the vehicle is very little, it's still going to be $70 that you'll have to spend on something that is entirely unnecessary and you'll have no choice but to buy it. It's a $70 idiot light for a problem that is the easiest of all to spot. I mean, you have an idiot light for the oil or coolant levels, but to check those requires opening the hood and looking at dipsticks and such and it's not something people really want to do everytime they get in their car. But visually looking at your tires requires practically no extra effort. You don't have to touch anything or open anything. You just peak around one side and then the other before getting into the car to see if any tires look soft. And then when you check your fluid levels, you can actually go around with a gauge and check the pressures while you're at it.

What's next, a $70 idiot light to tell you that your wiper blades are shot and need replacement? How about one that will tell you if your windows are too dirty and reducing your vision? If they're going to add a safety feature to a car, how about linking the wiper switch to the headlight switch so I don't have to put up with idiots who drive around in rain storms with their headlights off?

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ifcar


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Originally posted by: MX793
"

Yeah, and I can buy a good tire pressure gauge for less than $20 that I can use on multiple vehicles rather than fork out $70 per vehicle for a tire monitering system. In the grand scheme of things, $70 when compared to the entire price of the vehicle is very little, it's still going to be $70 that you'll have to spend on something that is entirely unnecessary and you'll have no choice but to buy it. It's a $70 idiot light for a problem that is the easiest of all to spot. I mean, you have an idiot light for the oil or coolant levels, but to check those requires opening the hood and looking at dipsticks and such and it's not something people really want to do everytime they get in their car. But visually looking at your tires requires practically no extra effort. You don't have to touch anything or open anything. You just peak around one side and then the other before getting into the car to see if any tires look soft. And then when you check your fluid levels, you can actually go around with a gauge and check the pressures while you're at it.

What's next, a $70 idiot light to tell you that your wiper blades are shot and need replacement? How about one that will tell you if your windows are too dirty and reducing your vision? If they're going to add a safety feature to a car, how about linking the wiper switch to the headlight switch so I don't have to put up with idiots who drive around in rain storms with their headlights off?"


Automakers typically raise the price of their vehicles about $300 per year, often more. Those new features are factored into the price increase, which would have occurred anyway.

And I believe some cars do have headlights that automatically come on with the wipers.

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thewizard16


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Originally posted by: ifcar
" Automakers typically raise the price of their vehicles about $300 per year, often more. Those new features are factored into the price increase, which would have occurred anyway. And I believe some cars do have headlights that automatically come on with the wipers."
That's why we have automatic headlights, which come on when it gets dim outside anyway. At any rate, it's not so much an idiot light, MX, the ones I've seen are actual little LCDs that tell you the pressure in each tire, it only flashes a light when one drops, but it's more than just another flashing light on the instrument panel, at least in most cases.

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MX793


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Originally posted by: thewizard16
"That's why we have automatic headlights, which come on when it gets dim outside anyway. At any rate, it's not so much an idiot light, MX, the ones I've seen are actual little LCDs that tell you the pressure in each tire, it only flashes a light when one drops, but it's more than just another flashing light on the instrument panel, at least in most cases."


It was my understanding that the "affordable" systems, the ones that are only supposed to add maybe $70 to the price of cars, would be idiot lights. 4 LEDs to indicate each of the tires and one would light up if that particular tire was detected to be underinflated.

And if they did include an LCD readout telling you the exact pressure, just how useful would that information be? No more important than a gauge telling you your exact oil level. Frankly, you don't need to know your exact oil level, you only need to know when it is low, hence why there's a "low oil" idiot light and not a readout telling you how many quarts are in your engine at any given time.

Lastly, I'm not super familiar with these systems. Does anybody know exactly how they get their pressure readings (especially for the cars that actually have a readout)? Is it temperature based? I could see using a temperature based system with some success in a "idiot light" style setup, since all you'd need is to have a light triggered when one tire was detected to be running hotter than the others (only problem is if all 4 are equally under-inflated, no single tire will run hotter), but I don't believe that any specific pressure number (i.e. 32 psi) is going to be all that accurate coming from a temperature reading. I'd be surprised if such a system were consistantly accurate within 2 psi.

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thewizard16


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quote:
Originally posted by: MX793
"

It was my understanding that the "affordable" systems, the ones that are only supposed to add maybe $70 to the price of cars, would be idiot lights. 4 LEDs to indicate each of the tires and one would light up if that particular tire was detected to be underinflated.

And if they did include an LCD readout telling you the exact pressure, just how useful would that information be? No more important than a gauge telling you your exact oil level. Frankly, you don't need to know your exact oil level, you only need to know when it is low, hence why there's a "low oil" idiot light and not a readout telling you how many quarts are in your engine at any given time.

Lastly, I'm not super familiar with these systems. Does anybody know exactly how they get their pressure readings (especially for the cars that actually have a readout)? Is it temperature based? I could see using a temperature based system with some success in a "idiot light" style setup, since all you'd need is to have a light triggered when one tire was detected to be running hotter than the others (only problem is if all 4 are equally under-inflated, no single tire will run hotter), but I don't believe that any specific pressure number (i.e. 32 psi) is going to be all that accurate coming from a temperature reading. I'd be surprised if such a system were consistantly accurate within 2 psi."

The cheap systems could be idiot lights, I really don't know. I personally think the display telling you tire pressure is kindof nice, it just helps you stay on top of things a little better. And I seriously doubt they'd use temperature sensors, accuracy wouldn't be that great. Air pressure sensors themselves are pretty inexpensive, and could be incorporated into a wheel someway without too much difficulty. I'd like to read up on this a little, if anyone knows of any websites on the subject.

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Originally posted by: thewizard16
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The cheap systems could be idiot lights, I really don't know. I personally think the display telling you tire pressure is kindof nice, it just helps you stay on top of things a little better. And I seriously doubt they'd use temperature sensors, accuracy wouldn't be that great. Air pressure sensors themselves are pretty inexpensive, and could be incorporated into a wheel someway without too much difficulty. I'd like to read up on this a little, if anyone knows of any websites on the subject."


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MX793


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The tire rack actually has a semi decent, basic explanation of the two major systems used. I guess one is to actually mount sensors and transmitters inside the air chamber (mounted to the drop center of the rim) that transmits exact pressure. I'm sure that does wonders when trying to balance a tire.

The other is to use the ABS sensors to detect if a wheel is turning faster than the others, since a low tire will have a different rotational speed. I think this is the one I was thinking of when I was talking about a system that wouldn't be able to tell if a tire was soft if all of the tires were equally underinflated (not a temperature system).

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ifcar


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Originally posted by: MX793
"The tire rack actually has a semi decent, basic explanation of the two major systems used. I guess one is to actually mount sensors and transmitters inside the air chamber (mounted to the drop center of the rim) that transmits exact pressure. I'm sure that does wonders when trying to balance a tire.

The other is to use the ABS sensors to detect if a wheel is turning faster than the others, since a low tire will have a different rotational speed. I think this is the one I was thinking of when I was talking about a system that wouldn't be able to tell if a tire was soft if all of the tires were equally underinflated (not a temperature system)."


The second system you describe will probably be the $70 one, and the most common. The other will be used for manufacturers who want additional bragging rights.

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thewizard16


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Originally posted by: ifcar
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The second system you describe will probably be the $70 one, and the most common. The other will be used for manufacturers who want additional bragging rights."

Probably correct. The more advanced kind will probably only appear on expensive SUVs and luxury marques.

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Probably correct. The more advanced kind will probably only appear on expensive SUVs and luxury marques."


Not necessarily. Some safety features available on economy cars aren't available on some far more expensive vehicles. It will probably depend a lot on brand, more than price.

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thewizard16


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Originally posted by: ifcar
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Not necessarily. Some safety features available on economy cars aren't available on some far more expensive vehicles. It will probably depend a lot on brand, more than price."

Like what, exactly? But you could be right, some brands will use the nicer one just to say they did.

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Originally posted by: thewizard16
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Like what, exactly? But you could be right, some brands will use the nicer one just to say they did."


Curtain airbags were standard on the Jetta before the Acura RL, for example. Stability control is available on the Corolla, while a decent number of high-end vehicles don't offer it. Other examples include items that I'll think of another time.

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thewizard16


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Originally posted by: ifcar
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Curtain airbags were standard on the Jetta before the Acura RL, for example. Stability control is available on the Corolla, while a decent number of high-end vehicles don't offer it. Other examples include items that I'll think of another time."

I didn't realize that about curtain airbags on the Jetta. Interesting points.

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