Prestige/Brand Image

CaMIRO · 4 Cylinder

RE: Prestige/Brand Image

ifcar · Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by: CaMIRO
"
An interesting topic!
I fear, however, that my focus on heritage has been misinterpreted.
Consider that:

The 1973 Honda Civic was the first mainstream front-wheel-drive car in the United States.
Opinion leaders jumped on board in 1974 (Oscar Jackson Racing)
The Sport Compact craze began in 1987
The Civic was - and, largely, has remained - the car of choice for those looking to modify a vehicle.
I'll post more on this later - but I wanted to make the point that prestige and heritage are not the same thing!"

I recognize that they are different things, but both are present in a Porsche 911.

ifcar · Moderator

Oh and CaMIRO, why don't you post that Civic thing somewhere as its own topic? I feel like debating that too.

-- Edited by ifcar at 19:18, 2004-11-11

CaMIRO · 4 Cylinder

quote:
Originally posted by: ifcar
"Oh and CaMIRO, why don't you post that Civic thing somewhere as its own topic? I feel like debating that too.

There's a PDF I'd like you to take a look at... here.

It lays out most of my evidence. If you read it, I'll be happy to debate you.

ifcar · Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by: CaMIRO
"
There's a PDF I'd like you to take a look at... here.
It lays out most of my evidence. If you read it, I'll be happy to debate you."

My computer couldn't load it.

CaMIRO · 4 Cylinder

Hmm... update your copy of Acrobat reader, perhaps? Then try right-clicking and save as...

ifcar · Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by: CaMIRO
"Hmm... update your copy of Acrobat reader, perhaps? Then try right-clicking and save as..."

It's working now.

But would it be possible to debate your point that the main reason the Civic is popular as a youth vehicle now is because the Civic introduced thirty-two years ago had FWD without me having to read 84 pages?

ifcar · Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by: ifcar
"

But would it be possible to debate your point that the main reason the Civic is popular as a youth vehicle now is because the Civic introduced thirty-two years ago had FWD without me having to read 84 pages?"

Never mind, I just read it.

I disagree with what you wrote about the Scion brand, and hope to debate that too.

CaMIRO · 4 Cylinder

quote:
Originally posted by: ifcar
"But would it be possible to debate your point that the main reason the Civic is popular as a youth vehicle now is because the Civic introduced thirty-two years ago had FWD without me having to read 84 pages?"

Possible, but hardly as worthwhile.

For instance, you are already attempting to reduce the point to a simple line! And, I must add, you have done so incorrectly.

If all you get out of it is, "the Civic is popular as a youth vehicle now because it was introduced thirty-two years ago," there is hardly any point in a debate!

To effectively debate someone's point, one must understand it. Your use of heritage at the outset of this thread - ostensibly my own - was not reflective of the way that I have previously applied it!

While those 84 pages are not exhaustive, I believe they should prove worth your time - whether you choose to debate me or not. Much of them is history, not opinion; why not take the time to learn it?

Conversely, should you find that you knew everything I wrote, I'll be happy to eat those pages.

-- Edited by CaMIRO at 01:07, 2004-11-13

ifcar · Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by: CaMIRO
"
Possible, but hardly as worthwhile.
For instance, you are already attempting to reduce the point to a simple line! And, I must add, you have done so incorrectly.
If all you get out of it is, "the Civic is popular as a youth vehicle now because it was introduced thirty-two years ago," there is hardly any point in a debate!

To effectively debate someone's point, one must understand it. Your use of heritage at the outset of this thread - ostensibly my own - was not reflective of the way that I have previously applied it!
While those 84 pages are not exhaustive, I believe they should prove worth your time - whether you choose to debate me or not. Much of them is history, not opinion; why not take the time to learn it?
Conversely, should you find that you knew everything I wrote, I'll be happy to eat those pages. -- Edited by CaMIRO at 01:07, 2004-11-13"

Okay, well I read it. I'll admit that I didn't know all of it, epecially the older information. But I think I could have adequately debated without it.

And BTW the point about the Civic wasn't all I got out of it, I was just trying to simplify it into a single sentence merely to bring up the fact that I recognized its existence.

CaMIRO · 4 Cylinder

I've read your response... but I'm not sure what reply you were expecting?

ifcar · Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by: CaMIRO
"I've read your response... but I'm not sure what reply you were expecting?"

Well, first of all, this is the Prestige/Brand Image thread. I had replied to your statement that I had said that prestige and heritage were the same thing, saying that I recognized that they were different, but that the Porsche 911 had both.

Also, could you start threads in the Mainstreamers or General forum regarding the Civic and the Scion brand?

CaMIRO · 4 Cylinder

Saying that the Porsche 911 has both is not entirely true - not in the context of heritage as I have suggested it.

Porsche managed to convince everyone that a rear-engined layout was better. It was not hard to do this, because the car had a relatively low polar moment - it would be unbelievably difficult for a front-engined Hyundai to have crisper steering.

Actually, impossible, all other things being equal.

However, the 911 oversteered as though one were driving on glass. I should know - I almost bought a 912, but it tried to kill me! And that was after several Skip Barber sessions; I decided that it would have been a little too much to handle for a college car in a Michigan winter.

In retrospect, I should have bought it.

However, note that there were many 911 crashes in the UK when Porsche decided to turn it into a yuppie car - clearly, this was not a car that everyone understood, or could appreciate.

White-knuckle prestige is not the same as innovative heritage.

As for the Civic/ Scion thread, I believe the onus is upon you to start the threads. You have apparently read and understood my arguments - I await your rebuttal, and an interesting debate!

-- Edited by CaMIRO at 11:38, 2004-11-14

-- Edited by CaMIRO at 11:42, 2004-11-14

ifcar · Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by: CaMIRO
"Saying that the Porsche 911 has both is not entirely true - not in the context of heritage as I have suggested it.
Porsche managed to convince everyone that a rear-engined layout was better. It was not hard to do this, because the car had a relatively low polar moment - it would be unbelievably difficult for a front-engined Hyundai to have crisper steering.
Actually, impossible, all other things being equal.
However, the 911 oversteered as though one were driving on glass. I should know - I almost bought a 912, but it tried to kill me! And that was after several Skip Barber sessions; I decided that it would have been a little too much to handle for a college car in a Michigan winter.
In retrospect, I should have bought it.
However, note that there were many 911 crashes in the UK when Porsche decided to turn it into a yuppie car - clearly, this was not a car that everyone understood, or could appreciate.
White-knuckle prestige is not the same as innovative heritage.

"

So you're saying that Porsche doesn't have heritage because it's mostly a yuppie car now? I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.

CaMIRO · 4 Cylinder

I'm saying this: to suggest that the Porsche 911 has heritage in the way I have used it is incorrect.

As I noted earlier in this thread, simplifying someone else's argument is a tricky thing!

The Porsche 911 did emphatically not advance its category; it was... different. Steering was better than in other cars due to the low polar moment of inertia - a quick scan of the current issue of Car and Driver will confirm that this is still the case (see 911 -v- Corvette), albeit that they do not explain polar moment.

Few manufacturers benchmarked the 911's configuration. Tell me: who else built a rear- (note: not mid) engined sports car? There are good reasons for this, much are there are reasons for why Porsche would not abandon the rear-engined layout.

Porsche-philes, who drive nothing else (e.g: Jerry Seinfeld) will tell you it has heritage. This is not the case, however, in the way that I have used it -

- and I certainly would not have used a 911 to illustrate the point you were trying to make.

However... the 911 has prestige. TONS of it. The heroic racers who have driven it to victory have been nothing short of brilliant. They had to be.

Besides, a car that suddenly began killing its owners (Top Gear did a huge story on it ten years ago) was always going to gain a little prestige - for the same reason that Stephen King's Christine story is popular.

-- Edited by CaMIRO at 11:50, 2004-11-14

ifcar · Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by: CaMIRO
"I'm saying this: to suggest that the Porsche 911 has heritage in the way I have used it is incorrect.
As I noted earlier in this thread, simplifying someone else's argument is a tricky thing!

The Porsche 911 did emphatically not advance its category; it was... different. Steering was better than in other cars due to the low polar moment of inertia - a quick scan of the current issue of Car and Driver will confirm that this is still the case (see 911 -v- Corvette), albeit that they do not explain polar moment.
Few manufacturers benchmarked the 911's configuration. Tell me: who else built a rear- (note: not mid) engined sports car? There are good reasons for this, much are there are reasons for why Porsche would not abandon the rear-engined layout.
Porsche-philes, who drive nothing else (e.g: Jerry Seinfeld) will tell you it has heritage. This is not the case, however, in the way that I have used it -
- and I certainly would not have used a 911 to illustrate the point you were trying to make.

However... the 911 has prestige. TONS of it. The heroic racers who have driven it to victory have been nothing short of brilliant. They had to be.
Besides, a car that suddenly began killing its owners (Top Gear did a huge story on it ten years ago) was always going to gain a little prestige - for the same reason that Stephen King's Christine story is popular.-- Edited by CaMIRO at 11:50, 2004-11-14"

I believe that it could be said that, from the way you said how the 911 was "different", that it created its own subcategory within the luxury sports car class. Creating a class, and remaining in it for thirty-five (?) years almost exclusively doesn't fit what you define as heritage?

(Perhaps you can reiterate your philosophy on the matter).

CaMIRO · 4 Cylinder

quote:
Originally posted by: ifcar
"Creating a class, and remaining in it for thirty-five (?) years almost exclusively doesn't fit what you define as heritage?"

The 911 did not create a class. It drew from the Porsche 356, attracting similar buyers with similar success - albeit over a longer period (it has been in production longer).

Secondly, the 911 was not widely emulated.

Prestige? Yes - (EDIT: although that briefly suffered when Porsche put mobile phones in it!)

Heritage? Not as I have used it, no. The 3 series would have been a better bet, but then we all know how well most of its competitors have done at pushing it off the charts...

-- Edited by CaMIRO at 12:02, 2004-11-14

ifcar · Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by: CaMIRO
"
The 911 did not create a class. It drew from the Porsche 356, attracting similar buyers with similar success - albeit over a longer period (it has been in production longer).
Secondly, the 911 was not widely emulated.
Prestige? Yes - (EDIT: although that briefly suffered when Porsche put mobile phones in it!)
Heritage? Not as I have used it, no. The 3 series would have been a better bet, but then we all know how well most of its competitors have done at pushing it off the charts...-- Edited by CaMIRO at 12:02, 2004-11-14"

So is your definition of heritage something like "being first to do something that is now widely used"?

If so, I think I see what you're saying.

CaMIRO · 4 Cylinder

quote:
Originally posted by: ifcar
" So is your definition of heritage something like "being first to do something that is now widely used"?

Once again, simplifying someone else's argument is a tricky thing!

Why not create the threads you'd like, and take it on a point-by-point basis. Keep in mind that what appears simple might be an evolving theory that has stood the test of time. Certainly, the hypothesis appears to hold in every example in which I have applied it.

That said, the Hyundai -v- 911 point was intriguing (if not quite related to what I have been talking about).

EDIT: Reading those 84 pages should have identified the points you might like to raise. The halo car section, in particular, should interest you.

-- Edited by CaMIRO at 12:08, 2004-11-14

ifcar · Moderator

quote:
Originally posted by: CaMIRO
"
Once again, simplifying someone else's argument is a tricky thing!
Why not create the threads you'd like, and take it on a point-by-point basis. Keep in mind that what appears simple might be an evolving theory that has stood the test of time. Certainly, the hypothesis appears to hold in every example in which I have applied it.

Those would be extremely specialized threads. I'm not sure that would work.

That said, the Hyundai -v- 911 point was intriguing (if not quite related to what I have been talking about).

Which one would you chose, the Hyundai or the Porsche?

EDIT: Reading those 84 pages should have identified the points you might like to raise. The halo car section, in particular, should interest you.-- Edited by CaMIRO at 12:07, 2004-11-14

Very much so. That's probably why the Civic wasn't popular with the tuner crowd in the 1990s until the Si.

"

-- Edited by ifcar at 12:14, 2004-11-14