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ifcar


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Heritage and the Honda Civic
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In another thread, CaMIRO made the following statement:


* The 1973 Honda Civic was the first mainstream front-wheel-drive car in the United States.

* Opinion leaders jumped on board in 1974 (Oscar Jackson Racing)

* The Sport Compact craze began in 1987

* The Civic was - and, largely, has remained - the car of choice for those looking to modify a vehicle.


Personally (IFCAR speaking here) I seriously doubt that the fact that the mere fact that the Civic was the first FWD mainstreamer 30 years ago has much to do with its current popularity.

In the 1990's, the main car of choice for tuners was the Acura Integra, until the Civic Si was released in 1998. The Si's populality and image led the tuners to standard Civic coupes (they had the same styling) and even the previous-generation Civic coupes, which looked similar. But between the Civic CRX and Si, there wasn't a huge amount of tuner activity with the car.

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Lorinser


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Didn't the original VW GTI start the sport compact craze?

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ifcar


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quote:
Originally posted by: Lorinser
"Didn't the original VW GTI start the sport compact craze?"


You probably want to read this:

http://www.automobear.com/PDFs/AutomoBear%20-%20The%20Few%20Remaining%20Secrets%20of%20the%20Sport%20Compact%20Crowd.pdf

It's long, but you probably want to be familiar with it for the purposes of this thread.

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CaMIRO


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quote:
Originally posted by: ifcar
"But between the Civic CRX and Si, there wasn't a huge amount of tuner activity with the car."

With the Civic? What are you defining as tuning? One of the reasons that derogatory terms have been applied to the Sport Compact Crowd is that they have tended to favor cursory modifications for little money.


The Si was a relatively low-volume car. To say that "there wasn't a huge amount of tuner activity with the (Civic)" is fundamentally flawed.


 


As for the VW Golf GTi, it did spark the Sport Compact Craze - in Europe (known there as hot hatchbacks). Volkswagen did not bring it here immediately, and made a whole other bunch of mis-steps; as such, it never sowed the seeds in North America that Honda did.


I detail the mistakes in the PDF link ifcar provided



-- Edited by CaMIRO at 12:30, 2004-11-14

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ifcar


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quote:
Originally posted by: CaMIRO
"
With the Civic? What are you defining as tuning? One of the reasons that derogatory terms have been applied to the Sport Compact Crowd is that they have tended to favor cursory modifications for little money.
The Si was a relatively low-volume car. To say that "there wasn't a huge amount of tuner activity with the (Civic)" is fundamentally flawed.
"


What term would you prefer to describe the young people involved in the Sport Compact Crowd?

And of course the Si was a low-volume car. But aren't most halo cars?
The Si got the Sport Compact Crowd interested in the Honda Civic, and its popularity with them has yet to diminish.

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CaMIRO


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quote:
Originally posted by: ifcar
"The Si got the Sport Compact Crowd interested in the Honda Civic, and its popularity with them has yet to diminish."

Considering that I've written 84 pages demonstrating that the Civic's popularity is rooted in 1973, you'll need more than this!


Like I said, perhaps you'd like to pick which points of mine you disagree with? Either that, or suggest something other than blanket statements.


 


I have no problem with the use of the word tuner. What I was saying, however, is that those who modified their Civics more peripherally should be counted in the Sport Compact Crowd - and they were around in great numbers well before the Si.


Ever read any of the tuner magazines?



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CaMIRO


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ifcar, do you understand that the CRX was, underneath, a Civic?

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ifcar


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quote:
Originally posted by: CaMIRO
"ifcar, do you understand that the CRX was, underneath, a Civic?"


Yes of course. Was it not called the "Civic CRX"?

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CaMIRO


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quote:
Originally posted by: ifcar
" Yes of course. Was it not called the "Civic CRX"?"

Now - do you realize that CRX performance (and other) parts were interchangeable with the Civic?



-- Edited by CaMIRO at 12:43, 2004-11-14

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ifcar


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quote:
Originally posted by: CaMIRO
"
Considering that I've written 84 pages demonstrating that the Civic's popularity is rooted in 1973, you'll need more than this!
Like I said, perhaps you'd like to pick which points of mine you disagree with? Either that, or suggest something other than blanket statements.

In all 84 pages I was unable to find any sort of conclusion to directly link the 1973 Civic to its popularity in 2004. In fact, the section that detailed the reasons other companies failed goes to demonstrate my point further. If those other companies had done things differently, even after you consider that the Civic was the first FWD mainstreamer, they would have been at the top.

I have no problem with the use of the word tuner. What I was saying, however, is that those who modified their Civics more peripherally should be counted in the Sport Compact Crowd - and they were around in great numbers well before the Si.
Ever read any of the tuner magazines?

Never once. And my point was not that there weren't any Civic modifiers before the Si, but that the Si led far more people to the car.

"




-- Edited by ifcar at 12:50, 2004-11-14

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CaMIRO


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Originally posted by: ifcar


In all 84 pages I was unable to find any sort of conclusion to directly link the 1973 Civic to its popularity in 2004.


I'll be happy to go through it with you, but I'm sure you can read it a little closer than that!


As for your theory about companies doing other things differently... my dear ifcar, heritage is an ongoing process - like kaizen.


I told you earlier: if your conclusion, having read 84 pages of my work, is that I have suggested that the Civic is the choice of the Sport Compact Crowd merely because it is first - then you have over-simplified (inaccurately) the argument.


 


Being first is not the be-all and end-all; it helps, tremendously! It's also very difficult to lose track in a segment you created.


That's a simplification, but perhaps it will help.



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CaMIRO


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We can dismiss your proposed theory that the Civic was not popular before the Si appeared.


From Alan Paradise's Sport Compacts (MBI, 2004):



"During the early 1990s, Civic owners took boxy hatchbacks, particularly the better-performing Si models (at the time an engine designation), and turned them into stylish street machines.


"Using key components from the aftermarket, Civics could easily be transformed from bland grocery-getters to weekend warriors. Nearly any Civic could be made into a respectable performer, or just personalized to look like one."


p20


 


Alan Paradise is the former editor of Sport Compact Car, the primary magazine of the tuner crowd.



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ifcar


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quote:
Originally posted by: CaMIRO
"
I'll be happy to go through it with you, but I'm sure you can read it a little closer than that!
As for your theory about companies doing other things differently... my dear ifcar, heritage is an ongoing process - like kaizen.
I told you earlier: if your conclusion, having read 84 pages of my work, is that I have suggested that the Civic is the choice of the Sport Compact Crowd merely because it is first - then you have over-simplified (inaccurately) the argument.
 
Being first is not the be-all and end-all; it helps, tremendously! It's also very difficult to lose track in a segment you created.
That's a simplification, but perhaps it will help."


What I mean is that I would have preferred to see a summary in a paragraph or two directly linking the 1973 Civic to the 2004.

The way I see it, being first helps a little, but only if your competitors don't pick it up soon enough. You yourself specified how the Civic's competitors could have become the cars of choice in your "Left Out:" sections.

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ifcar


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quote:
Originally posted by: CaMIRO
"We can dismiss your proposed theory that the Civic was not popular before the Si appeared.
From Alan Paradise's Sport Compacts (MBI, 2004):

"During the early 1990s, Civic owners took boxy hatchbacks, particularly the better-performing Si models (at the time an engine designation), and turned them into stylish street machines.
"Using key components from the aftermarket, Civics could easily be transformed from bland grocery-getters to weekend warriors. Nearly any Civic could be made into a respectable performer, or just personalized to look like one."
p20
 
Alan Paradise is the former editor of Sport Compact Car, the primary magazine of the tuner crowd."


I never said that it was unpopular. But when the Si came in 1999 it helped even further, and it helped not the boxy wagons but the coupes. And considering that Honda killed the wagons, it's a good thing that the Civic's popularity spread to other models in the lineup.

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CaMIRO


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quote:
Originally posted by: ifcar
" What I mean is that I would have preferred to see a summary in a paragraph or two directly linking the 1973 Civic to the 2004."

Writing is a personal thing, filled with personal touches in layout. When I write, I demand that the reader follow my argument. It's not ideal, but it is suited to what was a very complicated movement.


It is a movement that is hard to simplify - hence the 84 pages (and I still don't think it was particularly exhaustive).


Keep in mind that the political and economic situation played a huge role in the movement's beginnings.


Rebellion.


 


Speaking of compact cars, I've gotta run and wax the Renault before I drain the fluids and put it in the garage for the winter. We'll continue this later, then?


In the meantime, please go through a few of the earlier chapters. There's more in there than initially meets the eye.


It is certainly untrue that it took the late '90s for the Civic to become popular with the tuner crowd (although perhaps this was the case in your area?)



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CaMIRO


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quote:
Originally posted by: ifcar
" I never said that it was unpopular."

The Si helped, yes.


But the Civic was the Sport Compact Car of the early '90s.



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ifcar


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quote:
Originally posted by: CaMIRO
"
Writing is a personal thing, filled with personal touches in layout. When I write, I demand that the reader follow my argument. It's not ideal, but it is suited to what was a very complicated movement.
It is a movement that is hard to simplify - hence the 84 pages (and I still don't think it was particularly exhaustive).
Keep in mind that the political and economic situation played a huge role in the movement's beginnings.
Rebellion.
 
Speaking of compact cars, I've gotta run and wax the Renault before I drain the fluids and put it in the garage for the winter. We'll continue this later, then?
In the meantime, please go through a few of the earlier chapters. There's more in there than initially meets the eye.
It is certainly untrue that it took the late '90s for the Civic to become popular with the tuner crowd (although perhaps this was the case in your area?)"


I recognize that it is hard to simplify, but remember that by the time one has finished the 84 pages, page 1 is but a distant memory. I've read it in full twice, yet it is hard to follow the exact argument. It's not a flaw in the writing, but as much as you dislike simplification of a complex argument, I can't seem to be able to find the direct correlation without one.

Also, you have twice ignored my statement "You yourself specified how the Civic's competitors could have become the cars of choice in your "Left Out:" sections." Please address it.

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ifcar


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quote:
Originally posted by: CaMIRO
"
The Si helped, yes.
But the Civic was the Sport Compact Car of the early '90s."


I'd say it was the Acura Integra until the 1999 Si, but it may be a regional thing.

When will you be back online?

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CaMIRO


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quote:
Originally posted by: ifcar
Also, you have twice ignored my statement "You yourself specified how the Civic's competitors could have become the cars of choice in your "Left Out:" sections." Please address it."

No, I haven't... as noted earlier, heritage is - like kaizen - an evolving process. It is a process that favors the innovator. It's quite hard for the innovator to lose the segment once they have latched-on.


Perhaps you had a more specific question? Pick a competitor, and ask.


For instance, Peugeot's 304 in fact beat the Honda Civic to front-wheel-drive by almost three years. Yet it was nowhere near as popular. Why? Peugeot dealers are one part of it - I could explain the reasons all night... but the time simply was not right for that car. 1971 and 1973 were a decade apart in the U.S. market!


Incidentally, the failure of French cars in the U.S. also follows my model. I'll get into that another day.


 


As for the nature of the writing, it is written as it happened (i.e: organized by time). I could have organized in several other ways, but I wanted a more flowing analysis. Perhaps this is something to consider for the next edition...


 


Am on-line for a while, but probably on and off for the next few hours.



-- Edited by CaMIRO at 21:42, 2004-11-14

-- Edited by CaMIRO at 21:42, 2004-11-14

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ifcar


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quote:
Originally posted by: CaMIRO
"
No, I haven't... as noted earlier, heritage is - like kaizen - an evolving process. It is a process that favors the innovator. It's quite hard for the innovator to lose the segment once they have latched-on.
Perhaps you had a more specific question? Pick a competitor, and ask.
For instance, Peugeot's 304 in fact beat the Honda Civic to front-wheel-drive by almost three years. Yet it was nowhere near as popular. Why? Peugeot dealers are one part of it - I could explain the reasons all night... but the time simply was not right for that car. 1971 and 1973 were a decade apart in the U.S. market!
Incidentally, the failure of French cars in the U.S. also follows my model. I'll get into that another day.
 
As for the nature of the writing, it is written as it happened (i.e: organized by time). I could have organized in several other ways, but I wanted a more flowing analysis. Perhaps this is something to consider for the next edition...
 
Am on-line for a while, but probably on and off for the next few hours.-- Edited by CaMIRO at 21:42, 2004-11-14 -- Edited by CaMIRO at 21:42, 2004-11-14"


You don't think it's easy for the first car to do something to be unsuccessful? It happens all the time. They come out with a good idea that's poorly executed, and its competitors improve on it and are more successful. A recent example would be the iDrive system. When BMW introduced it on the 7-Series in 03, it was the most-criticized aspect of the car, after its styling. However, reviewers preferred a similar system, with improvements, on the Audi A8, and now also the 2005 A6, the 2005 Infiniti M, and the 2005 Acura RL.

As for an example of one of your "left out" examples, let's go with Mitsubishi. You point out that "the FWD Cordia and Serdia were initially off to a good start, with both available with a supercharger by 1984." But then what happened? They replaced the sporty products with the mainstream and unimpressive Precis and Mirage. You point out that the Sport Compact Crowd was impressed with the Eclipse, but unable to afford it- the perfect halo car. Mitsubishi merely lacked the lower-end models to support the halo.

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